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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1264
06/02/2024
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We have a problem, a big one.
When SyMenu was only a simple stand alone program, knowing its users was not an important thing. Today, thanks to the SPS technology, SyMenu has become a hub for portable programs. And the conditions have changed, a lot.
Every single day there is a relevant pressure to this web site because thousands of SyMenu call home to know if a new program definition is available and eventually (almost every day) to download it.
There are also minor APIs related to the SyMenu version checking, updating and other actions.
The problem here is that every web site has limits on its resources like bandwidth, number of visits, server RAM...
The second problem is the burden to maintain the SyMenu suite is increasing week by week.
One year ago I decided not to increase my already large collection of SPS. Despite this decision, today I am at 700, and there are editors with more than 100 that means they are full too.
It's a big problem because SPS is a fantastic technology and theoretically allows me and the others volunteers to index not hundreds but thousands of programs, but, again, it's a resource problem: my time, the editors' time.
The last problem is that I have no idea who is benefiting this fantastic system and, above all, how many SyMenu users really are.
Since every SyMenu installation should be identified by a unique and anonymous GUID (see SyMenuConfig.xml, identity node) I carried out some investigations to infer the numbers and I discovered that, supposedly, more than 3.000 users (!!!) are hiding behind three or four GUID. It's a conservative estimate based on the different geographical area from where the calls with those particular GUID arrive... so at least 3.000 users or four ubiquitous persons.
This situation it's probably caused by some third party editors that distribute SyMenu and create a configuration with the same GUID for all their users. The SyMenu customization is allowed but I always explain that the configuration node identity needs to be left blank.
These are the problems.
Now let's go with the solutions.
The only way I have to count the users is preventing everyone from downloading the definitions without a login. If you already have a user register on the forum you can use that one, otherwise create a new user and wait because the next SyMenu version will force everyone to be recognizable.
And this is for the fantastic four: don't even think of creating a user linked to dozens of SyMenu because these kind of users will be automatically banned.
Naturally to download the definitions you need to use the last SyMenu version because I'll lock every direct download (yes I have this one too.......) or download with old SyMenu versions.
Sorry guys, but this situation is negatively impacting the entire project.
Naturally if you have something to say, this is the right place.
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scentse Posts: 27
06/02/2024
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Gianluca wrote:
We have a problem, a big one.
When SyMenu was only a simple stand alone program, knowing its users was not an important thing. Today, thanks to the SPS technology, SyMenu has become a hub for portable programs. And the conditions have changed, a lot....
It's a big problem because SPS is a fantastic technology and theoretically allows me and the others volunteers to index not hundreds but thousands of programs, but, again, it's a resource problem: my time, the editors' time....
The last problem is that I have no idea who is benefiting this fantastic system and, above all, how many SyMenu users really are....
Long post. A lot to unpack.
I discovered SyMenu a few years back when chocolatey & winget were being introduced.
Primarily, I wanted software that was synchronized between my machines through cloud storage.
This software was the superior solution then, and remains so now.
I imagine work on this project began long before I discovered it.
With that acknowledged, it's impossible to ignore the changes in the software development space.
Namely - OSS.
Giver the time/effort poured into developing SPS & SyMenu, there clearly exists a strong sense of ownership protection surrounding it.
Sometime back, I asked about open-sourcing the project, but it was shot down.
I wonder if there exists a way to offload some of the recurring maintenance components onto GitHub.
For instance, could the definition list database be decoupled, compiled, & stored on Github?
That way, maintenance of the database and those calls would be handled by Github; but with much of the code remaining protected.
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1264
07/02/2024
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scentse wrote:
I imagine work on this project began long before I discovered it.
2002!
scentse wrote:
Giver the time/effort poured into developing SPS & SyMenu, there clearly exists a strong sense of ownership protection surrounding it.
Once a user call me the "benevolent dictator"... well there's only one person in this world that deserves this title and it's not me, but the sense of protection you mention it's clearly what drives my actions and decisions.
scentse wrote:
Sometime back, I asked about open-sourcing the project, but it was shot down.
SyMenu code is already on GitHub in a private repository. In the past three people asked to collaborate, but after I opened the repository they disappeared. So the code is closed because nobody expressed a real interest in it.
SPS instead is an open format. I shared the schema with whoever wants and asked for help from whoever wants to add new SPS. Today there are a dozen SPS editors active in the project but people go and rarely come.
What I think is the problem is not my approach to openness, it's about the requirements I ask to the collaborators that are probably too pretentious.
Regarding the SPS editors I ask for their time (a lot), expertise, reliability, trust, and long time commitment.
Regarding the code dev I ask them to be top programmers, seriously dedicated to the project.
And I ask all of this for free, because the project is entirely freeware. And probably this is its worst weakness or, at least, the real reason I can't expand it as I would because of the lack of resources.
scentse wrote:
For instance, could the definition list database be decoupled, compiled, & stored on Github?
The definition list DB is a simple collection of xml files. Text files.
They are already shared with the world because if you open your [SyMenu]\ProgramFiles\SPSSuite\SyMenuSuite\_Cache folder you'll find a zipped file with the entire list of the SPS inside. There's even a button in SyMenu to open the SPS for every program included in the definitions.
The problem on the editing side it's not about the place where the SPS are published but the persons that collaborate to publish them.
The editors are strongly committed, really expert on it, but very few. And GitHub is not a collaborators multiplicator.
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Mao_Tolba Posts: 1
09/02/2024
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First, I just got to know SyMenu and its a very useful app specially for those who finds it really hard to stay organized and everything get lost around me. So, thank you for allowing it for free.
Second, I'm a normal user with no coding knowledge who was looking for ways to overcome the issue of not being organized.
Appreciate all your hard work and brilliance.
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sl23 Posts: 285
10/02/2024
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Hmm, well, I think you know my feelings Gian! I love this project. I really believe you need to ascertain it's potential as a Payware app. I for one think it a very worthwhile purchase, and I don't pay for many apps! I've only purchased apps that are unavailable for free, with one or two exceptions. But this is definitely one I would be willing to pay for. I recommend 20Euros maybe? For each major update. This would also mean no user distros and more control for you. It also means you would know how many users there are and possibly gives you a better idea of how to develop. It also gives you more incentive and gives you something back. You've been doing this for over 20 years now! You deserve to get something in return!
As far as updates are concerned, I don't really think you need to update these apps as often as you do. I suggest going through the list and weeding out old useless apps that are rarely downloaded (are you able to check/monitor how downloads?), but also, categorise apps by importance. For example... Internet based apps are a security risk, so should be updated more regularly than say media players or notepads. Thing is, if there's an issue, the SPS gives a link to notify you of any problems or needs for an update if available. I know you have automated a large amount of this process for checking for app updates, but can it be automated further? Not for users, but for SPS Publishers.
I really do find it strange that so many Developers of software aren't interested in adding a simple update to an SPS file to help out this great project! I contacted around fifty or so, and only two or three wanted to help. That's really sad!
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scentse Posts: 27
11/02/2024
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Gianluca wrote:
2002!...
...What I think is the problem is not my approach to openness, it's about the requirements I ask to the collaborators that are probably too pretentious...
...And I ask all of this for free, because the project is entirely freeware. And probably this is its worst weakness or, at least, the real reason I can't expand it as I would because of the lack of resources...
...The problem on the editing side it's not about the place where the SPS are published but the persons that collaborate to publish them.
The editors are strongly committed, really expert on it, but very few. And GitHub is not a collaborators multiplicator.
Wow, incredible commitment.
You clearly understand it's a complex issue.
I hadn't realized .sps was open.
Sort of nullifies my thoughts that you were wanting to perhaps license or sell the format.
Surely everyone recalls Steve Balmer's DEVELOPERS^3 moment.
MAINTAINERS^3 applies just as well here.
Point being, even a company like Microsoft - with massive financials - still requires 3rd parties to invest in their platform.
Sort of insane that this project has been around since 2002, and yet chocolately had achieved more momentum in the space despite lacking a GUI.
There was a massive media blitz surrounding chocolatey when it released, the niche being its similarity to linux package management. Same goes for winget.
But I think most Windows user prefer to stay in the GUI, so its sort of lost on the majority.
While cloud synchronization between devices was a non-factor in 2002, much is different now.
As previously mentioned, I think the big niche for SyMenu is its ability to sync across devices, regardless of cloud provider.
I would try to lean into that branding & association as much as possible.
As you're well aware, developers of their own software actually build, and maintain their releases for the chocolatey platform.
I'm unaware how to go about incentivizing devs to actually build and maintain their releases on SyMenu, short of straight up paying them.
Same goes for press coverage.
But like chocolatey, once a big projects signs on, or articles are mass disseminated, more projects seem to follow suit.
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1264
12/02/2024
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A lot of considerations and ideas are starting to flow here.
Thanks guys.
@sl23 as you correctly say, I automated a lot of the checking process for SPS so it's not a big burden to check everything.
The real burden would be to discern among what needs to be checked daily and what probably needs to be checked less often, i.e. to manage the SPS in two different ways.
The only different process I apply today is for abandonware that is no longer checked at all.
But the real problem here is not the apps that me and the other editors have to check. It's the apps we can't include in the suite for lacking resources.
As I already said, SPS is a very powerful technology and we can reach 5.000 with no problem. And beyond this number it's SyMenu that would have difficulty managing the items, not the SPS itself.
The problem is to spread the SPS wings for real.
@sl23 wrote:
I really do find it strange that so many Developers of software aren't interested in adding a simple update to an SPS
The strangest thing is that they don't understand that adding their own apps to SyMenu is not a help for SyMenu but it's for themselves.
The apps included on the SyMenu suite have a larger audience and an automatic update system that the majority of freeware software don't have.
scentse wrote:
I hadn't realized .sps was open. Sort of nullifies my thoughts that you were wanting to perhaps license or sell the format.
I want to be able to feed SPS as it deserves, to expand the project, to grow.
Today I'm stuck because of a lack of resources, mainly time and people, to devote to the project. And if I need to convert SyMenu into a payware app as @sl23 suggested, to move on, I'll do it.
SPS is open and stays open. If someone wants to use it for a different project he can do it.
If anything will ever be sold here it'll be the service I'm dispensing with my time, with the SyMenu ecosystem, with the project reliability and continuity.
@scentse thank you for your thoughts regarding the lack of traction SyMenu has. You are perfectly right.
Differently from chocolatey or PortableApps, SyMenu has never been well perceived outside its own community and the reason for this it's a mystery I've never solved.
Try to read this posts and if you like let me know what do you think
https://www.ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=818
https://portableapps.com/comment/252017#comment-252017
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105572
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sl23 Posts: 285
12/02/2024
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I see your point re update management. Perhaps the way you have it is actually the best way of doing it?!
That was in my mind when I got the refusal from dev's, why do they not want to help promote their software? Very strange!
I expect you've done something similar, but have you tried asking on forums such as PortableFreeware et al?
Well, the suggestion to make it Payware was in fact a way of covering your time and effort. It doesn't matter what we as users pay for as long as you are getting something back. As a user, if you charged for SyMenu itself, I would purchase the Current/Next major build but app updates are free. If you charge for the update service, it becomes almost a subscription, one way or another, and that works in the fairest way I think. Because then Users get SyMenu free, can do what they want with the SPS system to install own apps etc, then can pay you for updating, if they choose to. The only downside? Subscription type charges tend to put people off. Go look at Akai unofficial MPC forum and search for subscription. One guy suggested it and every other user was against it!
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scentse Posts: 27
14/02/2024
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Gianluca wrote:
...Try to read this posts and if you like let me know what do you think...
Let me preface my commentary by stating,
"I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice."
(It's actually illegal in the US to do so)
PA POSTS
It seems the guy over at PortableApps is upset about how a maintainer has forked their product.
In the US, federal law applies to all 50 states.
There is a federal law known as Section 230.
Basically, it states that a service is not liable for the posts of its users.
But if a valid take-down request is made, the service must take down the post.
If there are some programs (posts) by a maintainer (forum user) which are in violation, the onus would be on the developer to request a take-down.
If the entry is made again, the developer would have to request a separate take-down for that "post".
Think P2P sites.
Next issue to unpack here is the whether forking the PA product actually violates their licensing agreement.
I'm unfamiliar with the licensing provisions in OSS, but forks in OSS are common.
There's also some nonsense about "repackaging".
But if the package is forked, it's a different product altogether. That's not "repackaging".
It seems like the admin's gripe mainly surrounds the removal of their splash screen.
Unsure if doing this violates anything.
If it does, then it might make sense to leave their splash screen.
Particularly if it will fix the "corruption" dialog.
Even if you were to charge a fee for accessing the SyMenu database; you'd be charging for that service, rather than the programs themselves.
VISIBILITY POST
Yes, adding SyMenu into a Wikipedia page could potentially help somewhat, however not in a massive way.
How to successfully launch a PR blitz is truthfully beyond my expertise.
Generally, I've noticed that when the big tech firms want additional visibility for products, they rebrand.
Same for B&M stores with "Grand (re-)Openings".
But it always requires the coinciding exposure provided by media (articles & "influencers").
Hiring a PR firm costs money.
I won't even venture a guess, but it's expensive.
Furthermore, that guarantees nothing AFA traction is concerned.
The term SyMenu conveys is that it's some sort a menu utility.
When in reality, it is a much more robust offering than a simple menu (format, maintained repository, automatic updates, cloud sync between devices,etc.)
Finding SyMenu's identifiable caterings would help with branding efforts.
Furthermore, the website ugmfree has zero relation to the program name SyMenu.
The .it domain is also unfamiliar to many web users.
This may be a major point of confusion
Google Search will always prioritize the main (.com, .net) domains for web searches in English.
This may be de-prioritizing SyMenu in search results.
Truthfully, there's no simple answer that guarantees the desired outcome.
Companies go out of business paying for advertising that doesn't translate into sales.
...
edited by scentse on 14/02/2024
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sl23 Posts: 285
16/02/2024
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scentse wrote:
...
What he said! 
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1264
19/02/2024
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sl23 wrote:
Subscription type charges tend to put people off. Go look at Akai unofficial MPC forum and search for subscription. One guy suggested it and every other user was against it!
If I'm not wrong, the suggestion in Akai forum was about subscription for bug fix and software further improvements. And I totally agree with the opponents.
SyMenu, as you correctly asserted, is and remains a free tool.
The management of the thousand programs instead requires more resources and should be the service you are asked to pay for.
It's not similar to the proposal for Akai but it's the same logic behind the streaming services: you access a continuously changing collection of movies, you pay to sustain the development.
Naturally the price should be much less than your supposed 20€ (per year), maybe 12€ per year? One Euro per month?
Anyway all this conversation is premature and useless with no affordable data on the SyMenu users.
For that reason I'm developing a login system to access the SPS Manager. This way I'll start to know how many users are really using the SPS thing and taking consequent decisions.
The login will be free for all and, if you already have it, you can use the same credentials you use for this forum.
The login won't be too annoying because you login the first time and then the system will remember you until you explicitly logout.
If you have more than a SyMenu installation you can use the same credentials for all of them. There's no limit to it. I want to count the users, not the installations. And I'm really curious to see how many users will pop up from the 3.000 different installations currently hidden behind a single ID.
As soon as I am ready to release you'll have other details.
There's another possible outcome from the login thing.
If I discover that the SPS users are too few, I'll close the entire project.
My boost in all these years has always been the conviction SyMenu was useful for a lot of people. As I asserted more than once, in my mind, SyMenu is a sort of time economizer. With this project I help people to spare time and to dedicate that time to more productive, funny, useful activities.
The claim could be: SyMenu helps you to stay with your family, more!
But to be really useful the community must be wide enough.
Let's see.
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sl23 Posts: 285
19/02/2024
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Sorry, yes, the Akai thing was I believe, about bug-fix and further updates.
12 Euros is fair, and would give you a nice incentive to keep going! 
I stay logged in anyway, I tried to create some more SPS but I find it a struggle to keep up with it, sorry!I don't know how you do it?!
I really hope you don't give up, but I get it. I for one would definitely miss it! It is one of a handful of programs that are used daily and not just for updates, but actually use it to open apps and folders. It has become a major part of my workflow!
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MacDjango Posts: 1
08/03/2024
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Jo.
A short note would have been useful to understand the reasons of the (newly) required login.
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1264
08/03/2024
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I thought it was already clear but a direct answer is necessary.
The login it's here because I need to weigh the community.
If it's too small, there's no reason to continue with this project because it's draining me.
If it's big enough, the app service must become paid for the same exact reason as above.
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grindler Posts: 2
08/03/2024
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Sorry for my stupid question... Who are the Fantastic Four?
I understand you and totally agree with you. Even if they don't say it directly, the world is mostly made up of ungrateful freeloaders who stop their hand when it's free, but as soon as money becomes an issue, they get their ass kicked.
Users benefit from good, honest work for free for years, but if you then want some compensation for your valuable time, you are reduced to a dog who only cares about money. Suddenly you are a rip-off, even though a lot of life energy, free time and money have been invested. You are then portrayed as someone who would rather take care of his family than the poor users who feel betrayed.
The world is unfortunately ungrateful and full of idiots... They are doing a great job and thank you for all the years you have invested in your tools. But I think it's difficult to charge a monthly subscription fee for apps that are free. Isn't this a violation of the license terms of the original developers. Surely you have to contribute financially to them?
I'm not sure whether, after all these years of work, they are happy with continuing the project financed by donations. I would also rather donate an amount than pay every month for apps that are actually free.
You can give an ultimatum. As soon as you have received amount xx as a donation, you will continue the project. If not, then it will no longer be financially manageable for them. Since I use their apps a lot, I would definitely donate, if only for my own benefit, so that I continue to have up-to-date tools.
But if there are actually not enough donations coming in, then the common greedy people don't deserve their software suite. The positive side effect is that your children, wife or dogs will be happy that they have more time again and will no longer have to constantly be bothered by dissatisfied users.
cheers
edited by grindler on 08/03/2024
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grindler Posts: 2
08/03/2024
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After re-reading, I would like to apologize for offending your users. But I'll leave the text there... Maybe some people will feel addressed and think about it a bit. Especially about this free of charge mentality.
edited by grindler on 08/03/2024
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FLOSS Posts: 6
09/03/2024
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Oh my god!
Are you serious? Or just greedy?
Happy shitstorm!
If you can't handle it, make it opensource, put it on github or somewhere else.
You are captivating free software on MY COMPUTER!
Without even warning me before the update!
I hope you will be sued for that.
Wow, that was the worst thing you could ever do.
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1264
09/03/2024
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FLOSS wrote:
Oh my god!
Are you serious? Or just greedy?
Happy shitstorm!
If you can't handle it, make it opensource, put it on github or somewhere else.
You are captivating free software on MY COMPUTER!
Without even warning me before the update!
I hope you will be sued for that.
Wow, that was the worst thing you could ever do.
Dear FLOSS,
I'm very sorry to have ruined your day and YOUR COMPUTER with the simple login process.
And sorry to not have alerted you in advance that, probably, in the future, a portion of the software you are using for free could become a paid one or could be turned off.
You are right, I should have posted a note for you.
I hope to be in time and this is the note for you:
"Dear FLOSS, probably, in the future, the SyMenu part dedicated to the management of the other freeware programs, could become a paid one or could be shutted down. Sorry for you loss"
Now I'm waiting to be sued by you dear friend.
And I'm waiting for the shitstorm too.
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sl23 Posts: 285
09/03/2024
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Wow! Looks like you were right Grindley!
Some people really are idiots, selfish, freeloaders!
Gian, don't take that to heart, many of us here are indebted to you for your work! I never realised it was so difficult for you. I completely understand should you decide to give up, though I will be saddened by the loss, at least it will last for many years. Even if updates aren't automatically achieved, we'll, for us they are automatic! You have given so much time and effort and if I could, I would donate so much more. Unfortunately, working in a factory doesn't pay well!
I always look forward to new versions and I am hoping symenu continues. But you need to look after your interests too. It was always going to ruin someone's life when you turn a free app into a paid one. But it needs to be done if it gives you incentive to carry on. 20 years is a massive amount of time to devote to something for free. I congratulate you, I appreciate you and your work and think you deserve something back for all you have given for free.
Thank you Gian and well done for creating something unique and very useful in many peoples lives. Something I bet floss hasn't achieved.
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zolople Posts: 1
10/03/2024
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Oh! it's awful! Now I will have to create a user to update SyMenú! I don't know if I should do it... ah! No! I've already done it to write this
Gianluca: THANK YOU!!!
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