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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
06/07/2021
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Hi guys,
I'm developing a new feature for SyMenu and I'd like to share a first implementation picture to have some feedback from you.
As you can see the new area in the middle allows to track all the programs I need to process. This way I can use the search without losing the previous selections.
In this case I wanted to Install 12-Ants, Mozilla FF, and Autoruns and, to find the latter, I used the search instead of scrolling with the mouse. You can see that my last search returned only two programs but the previously selected ones are still there.
The availability of a new area where the planned programs to add/update/remove are stored, allows me to move the "Apply all" button inside it. BTW this area appears only when you select at least a program with a checkbox otherwise it completely disappears taking away the "Apply all" button too... well it is useless with no checkbox flagged.
It seems to me a good solution even if the form is starting to crowd a lot more...
What do you think about it?
edited by Gianluca on 19/07/2021
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lupusbalo Posts: 76
15/07/2021
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"Not vital" but interesting idea
TKS GianLuca
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sl23 Posts: 285
19/10/2021
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Great idea. But now you've changed the Search area, This new section for selected programs would be better positioned on the right hand side, imo. You could have the boxed section of selected apps placed there with the Apply button, etc underneath. The boxed area could have a scroll bar feature for when too many entries are listed and I think this would look much better whilst leaving the vertical space on the left for the list of apps and their description. What do you think?
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jibibi Posts: 18
19/10/2021
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Hello ; me the area is gone? I only have the search tools ??? is this normal ???
oh ok it a new system... sorry ....
edited by jibibi on 19/10/2021
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
20/10/2021
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sl23 wrote:
Great idea. But now you've changed the Search area, This new section for selected programs would be better positioned on the right hand side, imo. You could have the boxed section of selected apps placed there with the Apply button, etc underneath. The boxed area could have a scroll bar feature for when too many entries are listed and I think this would look much better whilst leaving the vertical space on the left for the list of apps and their description. What do you think?
Well I don't see the point in moving the "plan area" for two reasons.
1) the program description has a fixed height. Even if I gain space, the description doesn't take advantage of this;
2) the program list area can be increased by resizing the entire form because it's the only element with a variable height in this area.
Plus the right side will be used entirely for the new search engine. What you have today is only the first step for an entirely new way to search.
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
20/10/2021
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jibibi wrote:
Hello ; me the area is gone? I only have the search tools ??? is this normal ???
oh ok it a new system... sorry ....
Yes it is. Please read here for further information https://www.ugmfree.it/SyMenuManual.aspx#SPSFormSearch
edited by Gianluca on 25/11/2022
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sl23 Posts: 285
20/10/2021
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Gianluca wrote:
Well I don't see the point in moving the "plan area" for two reasons.
1) the program description has a fixed height. Even if I gain space, the description doesn't take advantage of this;
2) the program list area can be increased by resizing the entire form because it's the only element with a variable height in this area.
Plus the right side will be used entirely for the new search engine. What you have today is only the first step for an entirely new way to search.
I just thought it looked untidy, especially when more apps are added than fit the window. Since it was added I have been meaning to request this, but you already have plans for this area.
Search area?! Can we have the option to hide this search area as a Sidebar then :-)
Also, while I think about it, could we have an option to hide columns please. I find it unnecessary to show all, and never use any except Icon, Name, Version, Status and Tickbox. Categories is a constant annoyance due to Tooltips appearing under the cursor and restricting scrolling.
Thank you.
edited by sl23 on 20/10/2021
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
20/10/2021
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sl23 wrote:
Search area?! Can we have the option to hide this search area as a Sidebar then :-)
Yes it's a feasible implementation. I'll take a note about this.
sl23 wrote:
Also, while I think about it, could we have an option to hide columns please.
This is a bit more complex but I can give it a try. To tell the entire truth I also find some columns annoying and useless 
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sl23 Posts: 285
20/10/2021
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Thanks Gian
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sl23 Posts: 285
01/12/2022
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A new thought on the side bar idea...
More compact and just as functional way would be to remove this side bar entirely and have the Search bar and it's two buttons in a horizontal line to the left of the date and Update App Definitions button. i.e. where the Tabs are. It's unlikely to intrude on the Tabs section as the search bar isn't that wide and how many Suites are likely to be added?
Also, the current list of search types listed in the side bar could be added to a drop down menu button. Maybe even have the option to save your own.
This way the side bar could be removed or used for other purposes as it's using a lot of screen space for no reason.
This makes so much more sense to me to do it this way. But the Search bar doesn't need to go there specifically, that was just a quick idea on positioning, but the idea of having a drop down menu with save options makes sense to save space.
Personally, I think it would look a lot better to have apps to be added and/or removed listed in the side bar. I'm really not a fan of the current method. But just my opinion. 
edited by sl23 on 01/12/2022
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
02/12/2022
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sl23 wrote:
More compact and just as functional way would be to remove this side bar entirely and have the Search bar and it's two buttons in a horizontal line
Why do you hate the poor search so much???
Well I think your previous suggestion, customizing the search appearance, should be better.
I like the option to have my search filters visible and immediately clickable and I would hate to be forced to open a dropdown, scroll to find my search filter, and click again to apply it. Today search is a one-click action.
My idea is that if you like the search, you need your customized filters otherwise you can hide it at all and if you need it occasionally you would be more than happy to click to make it appear again.
sl23 wrote:
How many Suites are likely to be added?
Well my dream would be to include the NirSoft suite in the main suite. I have some technical problems to solve before being able to do that.
So the SyMenu destiny is to have a single all-purpose suite, isn't it?
Not at all because you can create your custom suites and I don't know how many suites you would need.
Plus I have a project, currently paused, where third parties can publish their own suites. These suites could be even private. This way SyMenu will become a platform to publish things without my control. Imagine a company that uses SyMenu to distribute its private software to their employees or a group of guys that share pirate software among themselves.... well... Am I seriously writing this? I'm only thinking about the outcome of this feature, who knows where it takes us?
So interesting question, no response for now.
sl23 wrote:
Also, the current list of search types listed in the side bar could be added to a drop down menu button. Maybe even have the option to save your own.
... well sl23, you must save your own search. The default searches I created are quite useless and their utility is only to teach you how the search works. Try to create your personal searches and probably you will reconsider this poor search feature.
sl23 wrote:
Personally, I think it would look a lot better to have apps to be added and/or removed listed in the side bar. I'm really not a fan of the current method. But just my opinion.
It could be a good position. I have to think about that.
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sl23 Posts: 285
02/12/2022
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I dislike search as in my own experience, it's rarely very good. Even in SyMenu, you make a search and often, many irrelevant apps appear. But yes, I have been forced to use it several times, so the option to hide/show it is good too. I was just trying to think of a way where you didn't need to hide/show and it was always easily accessible. Personally, I thought that the better option. But you and others may not I mean, it's like you said, search isn't used that often, so keeping it visible, yet compact with a dropdown menu is, imho, a neater way to go. What do other users think? Do they prefer hide/show or dropdown? Perhaps a poll is needed here?
One Suite by default, but what about users configuring their own? Some may have several of their own Suites added, which was what I was referring to. How many Suites are likely to be added?
But yes I see your point about private suites.
How do we save a search? I didn't even know this could be done! |o| But I also see the point about saved searches requiring more space. I'll have a rethink and see if I can come up with a better option if you are open to suggestions? But that may require more work on your part!!!
Ok, you think about it... Did you think enough yet?  Seriously though, I just think currently it looks a little disjointed, like it doesn't fit and has been put there as there isn't any where else to go.
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
12/12/2022
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sl23 wrote:
Did you think enough yet? Seriously though, I just think currently it looks a little disjointed, like it doesn't fit and has been put there as there isn't any where else to go.
You are probably right.
That form has been entirely re-shaped and re-thinked two times and every time my priority was to remove things not to create a smart UI.
Because of this I accept your call. Let's try to reason about it.
The last survived areas in the form are:
- the grid
- the search
- the detail pad
- the installation|removal|update project pane
The grid.
My long term intention is to remove the grid entirely.
Today that grid hosts more than 1.000 rows... it's a bit too much for a grid because the grid was born when I was thinking about 300 applications, not 1.300...
Anyway the problem of showing thousands of items is not unique to SyMenu. The smartphone app stores host a lot more programs and use the search as the first way to access items. And they use a reduced grid based on AI, adv, and popularity.
The AI suggests what you probably want more based on your previous choices, the ads put on evidence the apps that pay for a showcase, popularity is based on the other users installations: if so many users install that, you probably need it too.
All these magics are possible only with a strict interaction with the user and his behaviour.
Today SyMenu acts as a discreet guy: it daily downloads the app definitions and what the user does from then on is no longer its business.
This is interesting: the SyMenu users prefer this level of privacy or a more tailored made experience?
Unfortunately I don't know. When you create a system that respects privacy in the same way SyMenu does, you have literally no idea about your users.
Even leading the development of a project like this is difficult because sl23 tells me he prefers a certain approach but sl24 remains silent until he downloads the new version with the implementation (that he doesn't like very much) and only at that point he complains. And sl25 remains silent but leaves the project.
It's really hard to maintain the balance and I can't embark on a transformation like this without a clue on the possible outcome and acceptance. For this reason the grid remains probably forever.
And... no, it's not possible to have both approaches and leave the user the choice.
The search is inevitable in both scenarios.
If the grid remains, the search is essential to find things. Not every person is willing to scroll down a grid of a thousand rows. BTW if I see a 1.000 rows grid on another app, I think it's a bad UI design and the dev is inept
If the grid goes away instead (I strongly doubt that), the search becomes the main tool the users have to find what they want and not what the platform suggests.
The search could be, and before or after will be, hidden but I think it's a limited need. But sure it can be done optionally.
Is the search better located in a different place?
Maybe I can put it on the toolbar as I did in the configuration form but, if you use the custom filters, that location is not suitable because the custom filters need to be accessed with a further click. I can't implement a solution where to show the custom filters I force the user to do a further click. But I can think about the opposite approach and force the user to click to show the search to the users that explicitly have hidden it.
To be clear, I hate what Google Play forces you to do to update your apps: click on Google Play, click on the user icon, click on Manage apps & device, click on Updates available, and only now I can see what the updates are and proceed. Are you kidding me? I need the information on what I'm going to update immediately...
Anyway, let's go back to our search.
Why do I think a vertical frame is the best solution to show the search? It's because the horizontal approach is too room demanding. Remember that our PC screens always offer a wide view so the side bars are more suitable if you want to have everything in sight. Well, except a colleague of mine that has one of his monitors turned 90°... anyway he probably is the only person in the world to have done this.
The details pad is needed?
I sincerely didn't know. Personally I think it's needed but only because I always need information on everything. Probably another person sees this information area useless. I'm open to any kind of opinion on this one.
The installation|removal|update project pane is fundamental because it remembers what programs you checked even if the grid changes because of a new search. You need to keep track of your installation plan before starting it massively.
Is it located in the right position? I don't know. I thought about another side area (On the right? On the left?) but it works along with the search so it can't overlap the search area. Another panel on the right hand side? A new one on the left hand side? What I hate most in both cases is that this panel appears|disappears and when it appears it shrinks the grid. Is it better to shrink the grid horizontally with a side panel or vertically as today? IMHO it has a minor impact shrinking the grid vertically because you barely noticed it. Is it good enough? Do we have a different option? Don't know again...
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
30/01/2023
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sl23 wrote:
could we have an option to hide columns please. I find it unnecessary to show all, and never use any except Icon, Name, Version, Status and Tickbox. Categories is a constant annoyance due to Tooltips appearing under the cursor and restricting scrolling.
It's done in the beta version I've just released here: https://www.ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=840
As I've already told I won't develop anymore on the main brench and the beta one is not still ready because of a bug of the .NET Core (the fix will be released at the end of 2023 and SyMenu will follow).
But in the meanwhile you can test it to see how the new hideable columns work.
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sl23 Posts: 285
14/12/2023
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Hi, sorry for the long delay, I've just been revisiting some old bookmarks. Completely forgot about this!
Just tried the Column hiding and... THANK YOU!!! So much better!
Ok, so the way I see it, you need the grid to keep everyone happy, yes? But you want to try new avenues that are superior in finding and viewing apps, yes?
I see the reason you are expanding the search now. and I have used it a few times, despite it's inaccuracy. But, it is useful.
What if the grid was left, but, with only three columns...
For example, on the left is the new Icon/Name/Checkbox Grid Column. With a search box to the right and under that, the details box. To the right of those two, show the update project pane, but as a vertical list instead of the current horizontal list.
Users can then scroll the list still, the current columns info that would be removed in this process would then be added to the details pane. Nothing would be lost. So scroll the list or use the search to find apps. Then see the current selection in the details pane. Those selected for installation/removal would appear in the update pane. All exactly the same as it is. It's just a reorganisation and space management.
You may notice, I said three columns to be kept, not four. Only the Icon, Name and Checkbox columns are required, I would keep the Icon column as well, it helps a lot! But now you're thinking. what about the Status column? Well, I think the best thing is to have a colour coding for each of the states:
- No Colour = Not installed
- Green = Installed
- Red = Update
- Blue = Discontinued
- Did I miss any?
I think the best way to deal with this would be to have the background to the check box change colour depending on the status. Or, an alternative is to have a small circle to the left of each name that changes colour to show the status.
Personally, I would reduce the amount of text in the descriptions. Some are just unnecessarily long. If you want help with stuff like that, let me know.
What do you think?
Two ideas for PANE layout spring to mind...
GRID | SEARCH | DETAILS | UPDATE
GRID | SEARCH | DETAILS | UPDATE
GRID | SEARCH | DETAILS | UPDATE
GRID | SEARCH | DETAILS | UPDATE
GRID | SEARCH | DETAILS | UPDATE
GRID | SEARCH | DETAILS | UPDATE
GRID | SEARCH | DETAILS | UPDATE
or....
GRID | SEARCHSEARCH | UPDATE
GRID | SEARCHSEARCH | UPDATE
GRID | SEARCHSEARCH | UPDATE
GRID | ------------------- | UPDATE
GRID | DETAILSDETAILS | UPDATE
GRID | DETAILSDETAILS | UPDATE
GRID | DETAILSDETAILS | UPDATE
Personally, I prefer the second layout. The first has too many columns!
Any good?
EDIT: Second thoughts, Maybe the first layout would be better as everything then works better for viewing. Personally, I hate the 'List' view in file managers due to the layout. But that's just my personal opinion.
In the Details Pane, I would remove the button for 'Removing the app' as I think it's redundant. Least it is for me. Does anyone use that?
As an aside... What about removing, or merging the titles and links for App Publisher, Contact Reviewer and Virus Total with the actual Names of each. Takes less space and can still be displayed as a link to show that there is a link, keeping the same functions as they have now.
edited by sl23 on 21/12/2023
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
12/01/2024
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Hi sl23,
A lot of suggestions here.
Let's try to deepen them all.
The three columns grid
With the hide feature my idea was to offer a lighter grid but, as you noted, you can't go down to the three columns layout because the status column is really important.
Well, I can't go down to three, unless I use your smart suggestion.
I can allow the user to hide the status column and, if he does that, I use the checkbox background color to replace the lacking status column, exactly as you suggested.
The checkbox has no tooltip at the moment but, in case I use it as a status indicator, I can add a tooltip to remind the item status in a more extensive way.
And BTW even the differentiation among Installed (green) and Installed/Discontinued (blue) is a good idea.
So consider it done.
Moving the update project pane to the right
If a user chooses to see the grid in a normal way (with all the columns available) there is no room to show the project pane to the right.
I can't sacrifice the search area because when you build your update project the search is really useful.
I could sacrifice some of the columns as a temporary setting. A sort of column auto hide function.
But which column can be hidden?
I'm absolutely sure that, for example, the category column is not so useful during the building of an update project.
And maybe I can experiment with shrinked columns.
Or again if the status is clear even when expressed by the checkbox background color as you suggested, I could sacrifice that one.
Well I have to test some solutions but it should be done.
And BTW, as you do, I hate the list view in file managers but my choice to use it in the project pane was the only available solution.
Details in vertical layout
Well it's impossible because it makes the form too crowded.
I use a MS web application for Azure services that is built horizontally. You click on a function and the detail appears on the right, you click on a function on the detail and its own detail appears on its right, and so on. When you reach a certain depth the functions on the left disappear but before that moment every previous function has been shrunk and has become useless.
When I use this application I feel a sense of claustrophobia and I'm not claustrophobic. I would like to speak with the persons that have designed the application this way to ask them: "why???"
I don't want SyMenu to become something like this so the only viable layout is the second one with a slight modification for technical reasons:
GRID | SEARCH
and when you start to plan an update:
SHRINKED GRID | UPDATE PANE | SEARCH
The modification for technical reasons regards the inversion of update and search.
What do you think about that?
Remove button in details pane
I never used it by myself but, if you don't use the checkboxes for a batch update, you have only the buttons in the details pane and in the contextual menu to manage an update.
The right mouse click that is necessary to show the contextual menu is not so immediate and clear for a lot of people. My wife for example doesn't use the update pane and prefers to manage the program one by one and guess what? She uses the details pane buttons. So at least one person uses it.
Condense the detailed information App Publisher, Contact Reviewer, VT
It's a really interesting idea but I would like to know how you'd realize that.
For example I can change:
App publisher ASoft
in
App publisher ASoft
or
Publisher ASoft
or
ASoft
With this last option, that for sure is your favorite, how can I explain the meaning of the link? Is a tooltip enough?
Contact reviewer SyMenu Suite
can become
Review by SyMenu Suite
or
SyMenu Suite
but again I need to explain the meaning.
edited by Gianluca on 12/01/2024
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sl23 Posts: 285
12/01/2024
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Thanks for taking time to reply, sorry for the long list of suggestions!
Well, I had to reread my post and then reread your reply a few times to get things in my head ready for a reply!!!
Here goes...
Here's what I think...
So, ya know how the Grid is listed vertically:
APP 1
APP 2
etc...
Well, you scroll down to show more don't you. You can also enlarge the window vertically to see more at once, yes?
Ok, so what about if all columns in the Grid are NOT hidden, but in view, you're saying you can't do it this way as it means there's not enough room. See where I'm going with this? lol
You could make the Grid Pane a set width, by default, three columns. If the user wishes to show more/all columns within it, they can either scroll that pane horizontally or enlarge the window horizontally to view the extra columns.
Is that a realistic way of getting around your issue?
If, like me, you only want those three columns I mentioned, then it stays at the default size and scrolls only vertically, just as it does now.
Checkbox having a Tooltip is a good idea, at least then it has info on what is going on there and people will hover it anyway. My only concern is that like the Category column, the tooltip gets in the way and stops you scrolling or clicking. I can see that getting annoying! Maybe certain things, like this, should be a RTFM situation? lol
Another alternative, which would help alleviate the problem with combining links and descriptions, is to have a Tooltip Box. Just a small scrollable box that shows info about what your hovering over. Not sure if I like that personally as it tends to become obsolete once users know the app inside out.
- Moving the update project pane to the right
Essentially, three columns NEED to remain. Icon/Name/Checkbox. That's as simple as it gets imo.
No need to worry about hiding columns or if more are shown if you implement the idea above.
Re: List view in the Update Pane...
Is there no way to use a second Grid Pane with only one column header named "TO INSTALL" or similar? That way you can implement this in a vertical orientation without the restrictions you mentioned. Or does that mean too much coding?
- Details in vertical layout
Maybe that same idea could be used for the Details Pane too? Not sure if that would work or be suitable???
When you mentioned this layout:
SHRINKED GRID | UPDATE PANE | SEARCH
I was wondering, where will the Details Pane go?
Btw, did you want any help reducing the content of the apps details?
- Remove button in details pane
Was just a thought, there's always one, right?! lol
Women eh. Just tell your wife I said to stop being awkward! Just kidding!
- Condense the detailed information App Publisher, Contact Reviewer, VT
I see what you're saying about that, it does mean you need a description and yes, I did mean to have a tooltip there.
As they already have tooltips, all that is needed is to have a "BOLD TITLE" for each saying what that link is for. Problem solved!
Hope those suggestions help you to realise the new layout better.
edited by sl23 on 12/01/2024
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
17/01/2024
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sl23 wrote:
You could make the Grid Pane a set width, by default, three columns. If the user wishes to show more/all columns within it, they can either scroll that pane horizontally or enlarge the window horizontally to view the extra columns. Is that a realistic way of getting around your issue?
Unfortunately not. The horizontal scroll is a terrible idea because we, as technological human beings, are not used to it and for good reasons: you risk hiding the most important column (program name in our scenario) only to see the other ones. Sometimes you can see some elaborate settings in tables like this such as the smart way to freeze the most meaningful column. Anyway I don't like this solution the same because you are forced to scroll horizontally and it is unnatural.Think about your mouse. It offers a nice and easy to use wheel for vertical scrolling but no options for horizontal scrolling.
sl23 wrote:
the [checkbox] tooltip gets in the way and stops you scrolling or clicking
This is impossible because the checkbox is a very small field and the tooltip appears on the right of it or on the left if there is no room available on the right. The scenario you fear is possible only on bigger fields.
sl23 wrote:
[a tooltip] to alleviate the problem with combining links and descriptions
You are right. A too heavy use of tooltips could risk becoming bothersome.
I could experiment with clickable tooltips instead. This way all the less useful information on the program detail panel, can be put on a single big tooltip and maintain their verbosity and clickability. But I don't even know if this thing is possible in Windows (it's a typical web solution) and how it can work.
sl23 wrote:
Moving the update project pane to the right
This is a good idea because it will eliminate the horizontal list view and offer a more natural way to plan an update. I like it. I have to study it.
sl23 wrote:
Details in vertical layout
I don't like it at all. We have very long texts on the detail panel and already too many vertical panels. Plus the detail is often not useful when you plan an update so why should it steal precious room?
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sl23 Posts: 285
17/01/2024
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- Horizontal scrolling - the point was that users could enlarge the window to show all the columns within the grid. But if you don't like the idea, that's fine.
- Click to show Tooltips - Isn't that how it's done in the SPS Builder app? Click the little info icon and it shows the currently clicked tooltip.
- Details in vertical layout - I realise there's some apps with a lot of text, hence why I suggested trimming this down. I did offer to help, with that, maybe you missed it? Many apps have overbloated descriptions that are totally unnecessary. The description pane should show info about what the app is in a concise but informative way.
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Gianluca Administrator Posts: 1274
17/01/2024
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sl23 wrote:
Horizontal scrolling [...] if you don't like the idea, that's fine
It's a bit more than that... the horizontal scrolling is a sort of anti-pattern, a UX aberration. And it's evil above all when it's implemented without a strong reason.
sl23 wrote:
Click to show Tooltips - Isn't that how it's done in the SPS Builder app?
Yes it is if you refer to the flying window that appears on hovering the info icon.
No it isn't if you refer to the text appearing on clicking the info icon.
My idea is to implement a tooltip but it should have some content clickable. It's quite different.
sl23 wrote:
I realise there's some apps with a lot of text, hence why I suggested trimming this down. [....] The description pane should show info about what the app is in a concise but informative way.
Usually the text in description is the text you find on the program home page. So the brevity of the text depends on the program author.. but you know the topic better than me
I like the copy and paste approach because it avoids useless editing on behalf of the SPS editors. We have the worldwide larger library software for a Windows launcher for these kinds of optimizations too.
Plus remember that the description is search relevant so more words means more results in search... Well now that I'm saying it out loud I don't know if it's a good thing...
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