SyMenu - Troubleshooting & Bug Reports - Was v6.08 released prematurely? - Messages https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 SyMenu - Troubleshooting & Bug Reports - Was v6.08 released prematurely? - Messages en-us http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Thu, 27 Jun 2019 06:19:22 GMT Thu, 27 Jun 2019 06:19:22 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from ziusudra )

Feature suggestion,bug reports and some other stuff may be written in different topic different context and in actionable format
This may be helpful for prioritizing and organizing issues and suggestions in the context of strategic decision
This is why.. all of these suggestions, critiques are valuable and appears the product of deep analiysis; but some of them has critical importance, some of them simply bugs,feature suggestion,strategis decision issues,documentation issues, lack of official bla bla visibility issues. Also some of them may be easy to imply,some of them may not be possible in current architecture ,some of them may not be feasible, and some has low priority
It's impossible for average people to reach conclusion ..


Anyway, it's better to break this dicsussion here and discuss every subject under appropriate topics.]]> Thu, 27 Jun 2019 06:19:22 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

chef wrote:
I disagree on your claim that SyMenu doesn't make anything different from any other download manager in the world.

You partially right here.
It's totally useless to speak about this topic in this forum (who cares how SyMenu download the programs in so deep details????) and above all you can use a network sniffer to satisfy this curiosity by yourself, but I can avoid you this fatigue.
The only difference between a download manager of a browser and the SyMenu download manager is the user agent I use (mine is wget, the browser one is its own).
This is the only reason for the slightly differences between the behaviors.

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019



When downloading the whole suite as recommended on the SyMenu project web site, most gets downloaded and a few packages not. For most of these the reason is with SyMenu, not with the download nor unpacking nor copying, and SyMenu reports timeout as reason for abort of download, not for unpacking nor copying. When downloading the whole suite, if finishes its work on my computer after something between 2 and 3 hours.

I use another tool wsusoffline which does also downloading, unpacking, copying, repacking and a few other things according to my limited configuration of what concerns me and my few computers (current and older ones). It also uses wget for downloading. The whole process takes more than 8 hours and doesn't produce any timeout on my computer, even if run off an USB 2.0 stick! (And this tool is already included even in SyMenu suite!)


I tried your work arounds for coping with these timeouts. It worked for most of them. (You don't need to worry on those where it didn't. As directed by you, I've to contact either AV software publishers for some and SPS editors for some. That's already going on.) So for this large majority of cases with SyMenu reporting timeout during download, the work around would encounter the same problems as SyMenu and hence not work. So I've to conclude that there is an unknown limitation within SyMenu resp. its SPS package manager which is not documented. Such a mismatch is usually called a bug. That's why I report it in the bug report thread of this forum as desired by the project SyMenu.



Gianluca wrote:

chef wrote:
This situation is not impossible. This situation is the reality for almost all packages which SPS package manager aborted prematurely with time out although in most cases the download was not yet finished and in a few cases the download had finished at network layer but not at application layer. And as far as I've read, I'm not the only user reporting such SyMenu "installation" problems in the forum.

Again, it's impossible.
The installation of any SPS is split up in several moments:
- downloading
- unpacking
- copying
You can have a problem at any of these levels and it doesn't mean that your download has had a timeout. It can be a difficulty during unpacking, a changed internal structure int the package, an AV that locks one of the mentioned action... Trust what I'm saying... I'm the one who wrote the code.

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019




I still don't understand. This has nothing to do with trust. I'm trusting you. Otherwise I would not report.

Do I understand right, that SyMenu reports abort of download with timeout, even when download was successful but issues appeared with unpacking or copying?


Do I understand right, that SyMenu may experience difficulties during unpacking when done automatically while not experiencing such difficulties when doing so with local package as source instead of web site?

That sounds like strange mystery.

Again, I'm not writing here on the small minority of cases where AV intervention was the reason. And this AV intervention was a lock just in one case, not the others.



Gianluca wrote:

Usually a user has got an issue, reports it, I solve it and we are all happy.

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019



I can confirm that I reported my issue in the forum when doing the first time installation as guided on the project web site. And I further can confirm that you addressed the part on timeout with a work around. But a work around is something different then a solution. It allows to progress while the issue still being unresolved within the program.

Work around are intended to progress while keeping the bug reported and on a list for looking when and how to find the root cause and to fix it. That's why this project SyMenu has decided to use this thread for bug reporting. And you confirm that this decision of the SyMenu project creates some difficulties to you to recognize suggestions for improvement. Or did you mean something different with declaring these suggestions as hidden?


Gianluca wrote:

Instead you are investigating the internals of the program with no cues in your hands because you didn't read the code,

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019




No. Your observation is wrong. How do you come to such premature conclusions or perceptions?

I only reported my observations of SyMenu and its SPS package manager. I didn't investigate the internals of the program as it seems to me not having access to these internals.

These observations give some indication which questions to raise for finding the reason of the observation. In the software testing industry it is well known the developers are biased on testing. And the observations with working work arounds proposed by you clarify some observations while keeping it unchanged on others that your analysis seems aborted prematurely. That's common in commercial software while open source software focuses more on root cause analysis before going to work arounds. As far as I know SyMenu is neither commercial nor open source. While both handling policies are valid, only the root cause analysis can assure a fix and solution. And it is you who claimed of always solving issues which wasn't the case here with most of these timeout errors.



Gianluca wrote:

Instead you are investigating the internals of the program with no cues in your hands because you didn't read the code, with no experience in the program because you are a new user,

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019



Yes, I'm new to the program SyMenu. With that little experience I could at least report back to another user one way to handle his problem via this forum within three days. I call it a learning curve. You call it no experience.



Gianluca wrote:

Instead you are investigating the internals of the program with no cues in your hands because you didn't read the code, with no experience in the program because you are a new user, and, above all, without a real purpose.

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019



I can't follow how you come to such a conclusion of not having a real purpose. Or do you want to say that new users have no purpose when reporting issues they observed?

My purpose is to help improve the quality of the program. That's why I use the means proposed and recommended by the project SyMenu which is this forum, in particular this thread for reporting bugs and troubles encountered with SyMenu. What did I miss?



Gianluca wrote:

Do you really think that these endless interrogation can contribute in some ways to the application improving?
I'm sorry, it can't.
And even if you are suggesting something good, it's so hide inside your rant that I'm not even able to recognize it.

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019



Which interrogations?

If you mean my questions, then yes I think they may help analysis for fixing, reveal misunderstandings for clarification, and hence help improve the application. How do you come to the conclusion that my questions are interrogations?
How do you come to the conclusion that such questions may not help to improve the application?
Or do you mean your false resp. premature accusations as interrogations?


And no. It's not true that you don't recognize good suggestions. It happens that you don't recognize it immediately. But that's something different of not recognizing it at all. You're better then you think and claim!

Do you mean that because I made suggestions for improvement, you'll not consider them although you recognized them.




Gianluca wrote:

My feeling is that you are only showing how much good and analytics and experienced you are.

OK you are the best.

Are we good now?

Can I return to more useful activities now?

Thanks.

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019



I didn't write about good or bad. So it seems that your feelings are deceiving you.

What kind of more useful activities are you refering to?

If you have difficulties with some kinds of bug reports, why not considering to extend the forum FAQ or add a pinned thread for directing and qualifying what you consider a good bug report, what a bad bug report, what an insufficient bug report, ... ?

And why not fixing this major cause of premature download abort of SPS package manager timeout (instead of download timeout)? (I may repeat my two alternative proposals if you like.)


Again, it's your decision when and how to address it as you provided a working work around. Priorization is completely up to you. I didn't ask for an immediate solution. That's the difference between bug reports and bug fixing. Other projects consider it more useful to use other tools for monitoring progress on bug reports (handling). I don't prescribe the SyMenu project which tools to use for this purpose. I use what this project provides and recommends. What did I miss?]]> Thu, 27 Jun 2019 00:04:37 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
I didn't catch up on which part you perfectly disagree?

The last one where you write: "That's a bug in SyMenu package management if my assumption is true."



chef wrote:
I disagree on your claim that SyMenu doesn't make anything different from any other download manager in the world.

You partially right here.
It's totally useless to speak about this topic in this forum (who cares how SyMenu download the programs in so deep details????) and above all you can use a network sniffer to satisfy this curiosity by yourself, but I can avoid you this fatigue.
The only difference between a download manager of a browser and the SyMenu download manager is the user agent I use (mine is wget, the browser one is its own).
This is the only reason for the slightly differences between the behaviors.


chef wrote:
This situation is not impossible. This situation is the reality for almost all packages which SPS package manager aborted prematurely with time out although in most cases the download was not yet finished and in a few cases the download had finished at network layer but not at application layer. And as far as I've read, I'm not the only user reporting such SyMenu "installation" problems in the forum.

Again, it's impossible.
The installation of any SPS is split up in several moments:
- downloading
- unpacking
- copying
You can have a problem at any of these levels and it doesn't mean that your download has had a timeout. It can be a difficulty during unpacking, a changed internal structure int the package, an AV that locks one of the mentioned action... Trust what I'm saying... I'm the one who wrote the code.


Sincerely I'm a bit tired of all your questions.

Usually a user has got an issue, reports it, I solve it and we are all happy.
Or a user doesn't understand a feature, asks for it, and I reply.
Or a user suggests something new, I analyze it and decide if it's worth including or not in SyMenu.

Instead you are investigating the internals of the program with no cues in your hands because you didn't read the code, with no experience in the program because you are a new user, and, above all, without a real purpose.

Do you really think that these endless interrogation can contribute in some ways to the application improving?
I'm sorry, it can't.
And even if you are suggesting something good, it's so hide inside your rant that I'm not even able to recognize it.

My feeling is that you are only showing how much good and analytics and experienced you are.

OK you are the best.

Are we good now?

Can I return to more useful activities now?

Thanks.

edited by Gianluca on 25/06/2019]]> Tue, 25 Jun 2019 09:02:07 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:
chef wrote:
So what does it mean that SyMenu package manager reports 0/54 for VirusTotal report?

It means that when the editor reviewed the package this VT was able to analyze it with 54 engine and no one reported a suspicios file.
This condition can change resubmitting the same package in another moment but SyMenu remains stuck to the first report until the editor reviews the package.



Thanks for this precision. With the help of your published manual, I already assumed part of that meaning of 0/54. The important information is the context you now added. I recommend amending that manual section accordingly. The "at the moment of package release" resp. submit would be fine for the understanding there. And your second sentence is worth a N.B. note in that same section of the manual.]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:51:47 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:
chef wrote:
I haven't been clear enough. I didn't write nor claim that AV stopped downloads. I meant that I observed that SyMenu aborted initiated download while AV intervened after successful download for inspection, holding back the download success until end of AV checking. In the view of SyMenu download was still in progress while in view of operating system and AV download was finished. That's no error. That behavior may depend on AV edition. Better AV editions try checking so soon while basic editions try it later when another program opens it for execution or unpacking. SyMenu package management seems to assume that either no AV software is installed or only such a basic edition one, not a more powerful one. That's a bug in SyMenu package management if my assumption is true.

I perfectly disagree with this.

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019



I didn't catch up on which part you perfectly disagree?

Do you disagree with my statement not to refer to AV stopping download?
Do you disagree with my observation that SyMenu aborted its initated download after download has finished and not yet reported back to SyMenu?
Do you disagree with my assessment that operating system behaviour or AV behaviour to intervene is no error?
Do you disagree with my observation of differences between AV editions (regardless if of same AV publisher or different ones)?
Do you disagree with my perception on the relation between SyMenu and AV software or operating system file system configuration?
Or on all together?


Gianluca wrote:

chef wrote:
Which kind of software reports initiates the reported timeout?
How may I know?
How does SyMenu package management determine if download is ongoing or not?

How does SyMenu package management distinguish between downloading and some intervention by operating system (i.e. configured Windows policies or security policies marking every download) or AV software?

A download in the Internet works this way:
- hi man, I need that file
- sure, give me your hand before
- (what a nice start.. this is one of the boring guys...) Sorry you are right, what a rude I am. Now can you give me that file. I really need it
- no man, since I'm a very precise host and I'm following all the protocols, I firstly have to give you some information about the download
- (uuuhhh this guys is is a real pain in the ass... I have things to do)..... then OK, give me the info
- here is the file name, its mime type, its size...

The sketch goes on but the thing to understand is that SyMenu doesn't make anything different from any other download manager in the world.
SyMenu knows that a download is finished when the file reaches the expected size, it declares timeout when the file is no longer downloaded but the host doesn't send any byte for a while, if the OS or the AV make something with a downloaded file, the download manager can do nothing because of the system privileges order.
Your browser behaves exactly the same way. Everything is on the hands of Windows or AV.

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019



These questions were not on the download itself but on SyMenu resp. SPS package manager management of handling downloads.

I disagree on your claim that SyMenu doesn't make anything different from any other download manager in the world. It doesn't match my observation. And you provided a work around in your inital reply which was working perfectly for almost all cases where SyMenu aborted with timeout error. If your claim of no difference would be right, that work around would not have worked!
I can assure you that your promise of your second to last sentence quoted above is not true. My standard web browser doesn't behave so strangely. Your hint for work around of the SPS package manager bug works very well. It did not experience any timeout although SPS package manager aborted prematurely on the same packages reporting time outs in contrast to your promise to experience the same timeouts with this builtin download manager of the standard web browser!


I know various download protocols. I even know command line tools handling various of those protocols in various variants. Sometimes I need them to bypass size limitations of download managers builtin to web browsers, never for time outs (except SPS package manager!). These protocols have their own timers at network level, transport level and application level. For longer lasting downloads (i.e. a complete operating system distribution, a complete application stack intended for import into virtual machine), these download managers provide the option to enable a feature so that the application level get's confirmation that the download is still going on to prevent premature abort of such long lasting downloads. Where may I configure this feature in SPS package manager?
Why do I need to activate such a feature in SPS package manager even if the downloads take between 1 and 6 minutes while I may need them with other tools and wweb browser only sometimes for downloads lasting much more than 40 minutes?
When I use your working work around, it seems to me that for some repositories, the download does not report the size in advance while doing so for other repositories. So why does SPS package manager initate an abort on ongoing download even if the repository didn't provide the size to expect before nor during the download?
How may I deactivate that timer or reset it to some download protocol default of 10 minutes network inactivity?
Why doesn't SPS package manager limit itself to the timers specified in the download protocols but uses its own?
At the GUI level, I didn't see a configuration option for this internal download timer. How may I configure it either by configuration file or command line?

I didn't look up what kind of information SyMenu provides on those time outs in its logs yet. Where may I find these?
And for what shall I look?

I remember that package Picasa was aborted due to this timeout while the download has finished at network and transport level while not yet at application level because AV software was still proceeding its check. With a look at the logs I may report other packages where downloads were aborted by SPS package manager while the downloads were even not finished at network level! They could be downloaded without any problems with the download manager builtin to my standard web browser. And your hint was directing me how to get the input for this alternative download manager off the SPS package manager.

Gianluca wrote:

chef wrote:
So how does SyMenu package management handle reported download success (after passed AV check) if it reported the same download as aborted due to timeout before?

It's impossible. SyMenu can report a download success only if a timeout hasn't happened.

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019



This situation is not impossible. This situation is the reality for almost all packages which SPS package manager aborted prematurely with time out although in most cases the download was not yet finished and in a few cases the download had finished at network layer but not at application layer. And as far as I've read, I'm not the only user reporting such SyMenu "installation" problems in the forum.


And the question was not when SyMenu reports download success. The question was on how SyMenu package management handles the incoming feed back of the network layer for successful download of its initiated download request while the network layer did not report any timeout and SyMenu already processed some download requests later while having reported aborted the still ongoing download as aborted for timeout reasons which cannot be network timeouts but have to by SPS package manager timeouts and SPS package manager not yet having finished the multi-package download request.]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:25:34 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca You can find policies against DDoS attacks but why they should limit the downloading ability?
Some web sites need the users navigate to the page because they live with ads but if they allow the automatic download what's the sense in limiting it?
None. They want their materials spread all over the Internet so their actions will be eventually to offer multiple download mirrors, to increase download speed, to grant low latency.
This is the reason for which I'm asking some documentations. Because it's strange that SourceForge acts this way while Github for example acts in the exact opposite way.]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:28:58 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:
chef wrote:
The best option would be that SPS allows such a mirror list [of download URL] and SPS editors use it

This could be a nice feature above all if your considerations about the SourceForge limitation policies against repeated download is true.

Can you supply some official documentation regarding this limitations?

I don't think a limitation like this can be kept secret because otherwise they'll start to have bug reports from their unaware users.



I don't see any dependancy.


My proposal should always work regardless of repository concerned. And it may increase reliability of SPS package manager regardless of repository or package concerned. Only for cases where the software authors prohibit such second source or mirror list for download, this list would just contain the single member as currently. (You mentioned one such software author in the forum. I know at least a few others.)


As I already wrote to you by email, I remember such a recommendation and limitation published on SourceForge before a major ownership change of that repository. I didn't save copies of such web pages as already written in that email. So I can't supply you this documentation for the case of SourceForge as I looked up before resp. during writing that email. I further mentioned the case of the package SIV System Information Viewer where even you found such an authors clear preference to download not of his web site but instead of the mirror list he provided.


Do you need also documentation on the limitation policy?

It's a long time ago that I've read those. And I didn't save them locally. If you need it, I'll have to search again.

Independant of that I occassionally manage a few web sites. I didn't investigate when such configuration options are provided by the web server itself and when by some security extension. I can assure you that such solutions exist and are in use. When I configure such items, I take sliding windows of either in the range between 1 and 5 minutes into consideration, and always to take additional conditions into the evaluation in order to prevent locking me out myself and to address (at least partially) dangers of denial of service (DOS resp. distributed variant DDOS) attacks. It's a hardening policy for abuse prevention.]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:20:08 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
SPS package manager does support and recognize an updated contact field as I didn't read so far of a versioning of SPS independant of the versioning of the packages they describe?

Yes sure.

You can fix whatever field and SyMenu will recognize it as a change in the SPS that doesn't affect the program described by the SPS itself.

If you change the version field instead, SyMenu will recognize it as a program update and suggest the update action to the user.
Well if you change the program name, SyMenu will recognize the SPS as related to another program because the name is the SPS key. But this is an exception because the name never changes so take in consideration rules 1) and 2).


]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 18:41:51 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:
chef wrote:
Then I wanted to report it to SPS editor. This revealed the next bug. Clicking on the corresponding option opens a new tab in the web broswer. But the opening page is a web error page

I contacted the editor to ask him to re-activate the contact form.

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019



I tried also to contact the SPS editor. As I did not get a feed back before if you would be so kind to forward these posts, I tried if the same user name in this forum relates to the same person and wrote a PM via this forum to raise his attention on these posts. And he replied to me similarly that fixing will take some time as he's currently not at home.

According to what I understood of the contact form hosting web site, re-activation probably will not work. It sounds to me that creating a new contact form with the new method on offer of the same web site will create a new contact form. I'v not clue if that new contact form will result in the same URL which has been intentionally deleted by that hoster or into a new one. If the result is a new one, creation of the new contact form will not be sufficient as this SPS editors SPS packages will then need a refresh of the contact field.

This raises the new question if the SPS package manager does support and recognize an updated contact field as I didn't read so far of a versioning of SPS independant of the versioning of the packages they describe?


I fear that SPS package manager will ignore it as long as the described package doesn't get updated. And I further guess that a work around will be to force update in SPS package manager in order to take into account the new content field. Am I right?

Gianluca wrote:

chef wrote:
Create a free contact form for your website!

Sorry no time for this, the priority is SyMenu not the web site.

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019



This was meant as part of the message addressing the (currently not directly addressable) SPS package editor, not you as you aren't the SPS package editor of those packages.

Gianluca wrote:

chef wrote:
And here you see another bug resp. limitation of this forum feature as I don't have any influence on font size. It's a side effect of quoting off different sources and how the forum software handles it. I can only influence style like bold, italics or underlined as far as I can see.

Again with the forum... I can't correct the forum bugs because I'm not the forum author.

IMHO it's a good software, it's free, it's easy to use, it's compatible with the platform I'm using for the web site, it it's bugged it's not so bugged to be unusable, and I have not time to create a forum software by myself. So please try to workaround all the bugs of this bad software and don't report them to me.

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019



I know that you're not the forum software author. And as the forum software is in trial edition, it reveals its source in the mean time and found the authors note on the few differences between trial edition and subscribed resp. registered edition (and that your usage of trial edition is explicitely permitted by the author). What I don't know is when I observe a limitation if it is due to its configuration or the software itself. The first variant could be fixed by you while the second one obviously not.

No. It's not free nor freeware. Only the trial edition is free while the others are on subscription (with almost same feature set but varying support options all missing for the trial edition). (In the other forum on portable software in the states where you're member too, there is a classification of software types/licenses and some trends. According to the FAQ there, such mixed types and licenses are wide spread resp. converted to.)


Your choice wasn't limited to use this trial edition forum software or create your own. There are several other forum software available free of charge, some probably more wide spread, probably requiring to install another tool so that alternative forum software may run on your hosting environment.

I'll continue trying to find work arounds as far as suitable and ignore other effects of the forum software (as long as they're not blocking). And as you see, I already found some work arounds and you provided me already another hint in this thread. (Some have to do with the order of processing, just changing processing order when writing.)


So as far as my notes on the forum software concern you, it's fine to provide feed back if the observation is due to configuration or inherent of the forum software.

And as far as I've seen, there are forum users who master this forum software much more with astonishing effects.]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 18:33:15 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
So what does it mean that SyMenu package manager reports 0/54 for VirusTotal report?

It means that when the editor reviewed the package this VT was able to analyze it with 54 engine and no one reported a suspicios file.
This condition can change resubmitting the same package in another moment but SyMenu remains stuck to the first report until the editor reviews the package.]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:29:08 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
How does your assessment conclude that Google Play Store would be a centralized hosting repository?

I'm using the term centralized and decentralized in a different way. I don't refer to the server topology but to the ownership. Google own it's Google Play Store entirely. It has the power to admit your app or to reject it. It hosts your app.
I have no such a control on the suite programs. I only link them.

chef wrote:
I don't understand what you mean when describing "chaos we have to deal with the Internet"

I intend that the Internet doesn't force anyone to organize his own content in any particular way.
A different environment instead, for example the Google Play Store, forces its user to organize the content in a particular way.

If I want to mimic the Google Play Store without exert my ownership on the published programs I have to create a tool that organize the chaos.
]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:25:25 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
I don't like coffee. I prefer tea. And yes, for undetermined causes, I'll repeat at different times of day.
That sounds much to conspiracy theory which raised strongly in popularity in the northern hemisphere of our planet, not only in Europe but also in North-America and Asia. I see the world and the Internet differently. I started to use Internet almost 35 years ago which was a nice place of many kind people and only few dangerous ones. The web has been invented more than half a decade later. The Internet has changes since. Security requirements have strongly increased also in the Internet. So its not so strange and dangerous as several people claim. The aim of increasing security levels is creating better identification of risks and dangers, provide simple and basic methods to handle them. And I don't understand Ministers of Internal Affairs of several powerful countries why they're responsible to increase such security levels and awareness (i.e. European KRIT regulation on critical infrastructure) while the same ministers want to prevent higher security levels in order to make work easier for law enforcement authorities and criminals.


You should put a smile occasionally

I better understand when you are making a joke smile

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:14:22 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
I haven't been clear enough. I didn't write nor claim that AV stopped downloads. I meant that I observed that SyMenu aborted initiated download while AV intervened after successful download for inspection, holding back the download success until end of AV checking. In the view of SyMenu download was still in progress while in view of operating system and AV download was finished. That's no error. That behavior may depend on AV edition. Better AV editions try checking so soon while basic editions try it later when another program opens it for execution or unpacking. SyMenu package management seems to assume that either no AV software is installed or only such a basic edition one, not a more powerful one. That's a bug in SyMenu package management if my assumption is true.

I perfectly disagree with this.

chef wrote:
Which kind of software reports initiates the reported timeout?
How may I know?
How does SyMenu package management determine if download is ongoing or not?

How does SyMenu package management distinguish between downloading and some intervention by operating system (i.e. configured Windows policies or security policies marking every download) or AV software?

A download in the Internet works this way:
- hi man, I need that file
- sure, give me your hand before
- (what a nice start.. this is one of the boring guys...) Sorry you are right, what a rude I am. Now can you give me that file. I really need it
- no man, since I'm a very precise host and I'm following all the protocols, I firstly have to give you some information about the download
- (uuuhhh this guys is is a real pain in the ass... I have things to do)..... then OK, give me the info
- here is the file name, its mime type, its size...

The sketch goes on but the thing to understand is that SyMenu doesn't make anything different from any other download manager in the world.
SyMenu knows that a download is finished when the file reaches the expected size, it declares timeout when the file is no longer downloaded but the host doesn't send any byte for a while, if the OS or the AV make something with a downloaded file, the download manager can do nothing because of the system privileges order.
Your browser behaves exactly the same way. Everything is on the hands of Windows or AV.

chef wrote:
So how does SyMenu package management handle reported download success (after passed AV check) if it reported the same download as aborted due to timeout before?

It's impossible. SyMenu can report a download success only if a timeout hasn't happened.

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 10:11:08 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
The best option would be that SPS allows such a mirror list [of download URL] and SPS editors use it

This could be a nice feature above all if your considerations about the SourceForge limitation policies against repeated download is true.

Can you supply some official documentation regarding this limitations?

I don't think a limitation like this can be kept secret because otherwise they'll start to have bug reports from their unaware users.]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 09:49:47 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
Then I wanted to report it to SPS editor. This revealed the next bug. Clicking on the corresponding option opens a new tab in the web broswer. But the opening page is a web error page

I contacted the editor to ask him to re-activate the contact form.

chef wrote:
Create a free contact form for your website!

Sorry no time for this, the priority is SyMenu not the web site.

chef wrote:
When did you try the last time to contact SPS editor by means of SyMenu?

I never get in touch with the editors through SyMenu. I have their emails.


chef wrote:
SyMenu reports me that VVV_Easy_SyMenu is SPS editor while the URL of the error page suggests that vvv-easy is the name of that editor. How may I contact him resp. her?

Please wait, he usually fixes anything wrong in a really fast way. I'll keep you updated on this.
EDIT: The editor replies that he is unavailable for a few days. So we have to wait for a while for the fix.


chef wrote:
And here you see another bug resp. limitation of this forum feature as I don't have any influence on font size. It's a side effect of quoting off different sources and how the forum software handles it. I can only influence style like bold, italics or underlined as far as I can see.

Again with the forum... I can't correct the forum bugs because I'm not the forum author.

IMHO it's a good software, it's free, it's easy to use, it's compatible with the platform I'm using for the web site, it it's bugged it's not so bugged to be unusable, and I have not time to create a forum software by myself. So please try to workaround all the bugs of this bad software and don't report them to me.

edited by Gianluca on 24/06/2019]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 09:41:06 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
Decentralisation provides methods for increasing reliability.

...only when every node of the decentralized system is aware that is part of a centralized system.

In my case every hosting web site is not aware it is part of the SPS decentralized system so it can:
- go off-line;
- change its structure;
- change its links;
- change its policies on automatic download;
- implement redirects that break something.

and os on.

So this kind of decentralized system is unreliable by definition.]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 09:25:30 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca chef wrote:
I can now further provide feed back that the forum software feature preview isn't the kind of preview I'm used to of forum software. The preview looks quite different as it does not preprocess every markup used! It does not use markup of quotes! Is this a bug of the forum software or a known limitation of the trial version?

It's a know limitation of the forum software (trial or full).]]> Mon, 24 Jun 2019 09:19:11 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef chef wrote:
chef wrote:
Gianluca wrote:

"May somebody explain how to handle the observed problems?"
Timeout: please retry again.
404 not found: report to the SPS editor through the special button you have in every program card.
403 forbidden: try to open the download link with your browser to understand if your system is refusing to access that particular resource or if the web site refuses to download the package without visiting it (yes... it happens).
Check available disk space and permission...: do what the message is asking you.
A good workaround for any of these problems is to download the package by hand (you have the link in the program card) and use the contextual option "Add from local package".

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



I did not yet finish to process the list of available uninstalled tools. Yesterday, the tool tips showed me the whole error message including error code. Today, I didn't see the error code anymore. The only thing I changed was to enable logging.

So far, I didn't process 404 nor 403 cases but 300 (Multiple Choices) instead. This was when processing Filmotech. SPS wanted ..."_38.exe" file. The repository didn't have it anymore. It seemed to be renamed to ..."_380.exe" and it provided another alternative at the same location named ..."_381.exe".

As already mentioned, I used the installation time yesterday to read the manual. There I read also of this manual procedure and thought it not relevant to me. In accordance to your guidance in your reply I tried successfully this manual procedure. Thank you for your guidance.

Then I wanted to report it to SPS editor. This revealed the next bug. Clicking on the corresponding option opens a new tab in the web broswer (as configured for URL handling). But the opening page is a web error page which doesn't provide the error code nor error context. But it provided enough information about the reason what went wrong. This resulting web error page reported "We are sorry, but this contact form has been deleted.

Create a free contact form for your website!"


When did you try the last time to contact SPS editor by means of SyMenu?


SyMenu reports me that VVV_Easy_SyMenu is SPS editor while the URL of the error page suggests that vvv-easy is the name of that editor. How may I contact him resp. her?


And here you see another bug resp. limitation of this forum feature as I don't have any influence on font size. It's a side effect of quoting off different sources and how the forum software handles it. I can only influence style like bold, italics or underlined as far as I can see.



Hi Gianluca,

as requested, I report this 404 error for currently unreachable SPS editor VVV_Easy_SyMenu alias vvv-easy for the SPS package tinyMediaManager. At the requested URL it reports this 404 error, page not found. Please make sure that the address is correct and hasn't moved. So how may I get this report forwarded to the SPS editor?
How may I get the package?
When does the SPS package get fixed?



Hi Gianluca,

as requested, I report this SyMenu package manager timeout error for SPS package Picasa. SPS package editor is this currently unreachable VVV_Easy_SyMenu alias vvv-easy. I don't know if downloading succeeds. It doesn't seem so. It seems to fail due to AV interventions reporting a virus found within web content. It doesn't report which virus as it didn't await download finish nor report which virus engine detected it. My AV software is G Data coming with two AV engines and refusing access. When trying the same manually, it's the same picture. So what does it mean that SyMenu package manager reports 0/54 for VirusTotal report?
Does it mean that no virus has been detected by 54 engines when the SPS package has been created?
Or does it mean that no virus has been detected by 54 engines on the day of starting this package manager resp. the day before? (I configured SyMenu package manager to update its database for updates daily instead of the default update interval.)
Does this mean that this download page got its SPS package infected by a virus or trojan between package release and my download request in the past two days?

How may I proceed without infecting my computer?
May you please forward this report to the SPS editor?


If I understand the SyMenu manual correctly, a click on that virus report has no effect if the first number is 0 as is the case here. That's compliant with my observation. When I go ti VirusTotal directly and enter the SPS URL for this package, I don't get 0/54 but instead 1/70. VirusTotal reports that G Data considered it as clean while my G Data installation reports it as infected. VirusTotal reports that Dr.Web has reported it as infected and its latest report is of 20 June at almost 18:40 UTC. VirusTotal further reports that commercial edition of various AV tools is different to those of VirusTotal, including G Data.


I did further observe that opposed to the manual, the field with VirusTotal isn't always filled, neither for NirSoft suite nor for SyMenu suite. Several of the packages with empty VirusTotal report in SyMenu package manager are claimed infected by trojan or virus of my local AV tool. Is this a bug of SyMenu Package manager?


edited by chef on 22/06/2019]]> Sat, 22 Jun 2019 01:58:07 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef chef wrote:
Gianluca wrote:

"May somebody explain how to handle the observed problems?"
Timeout: please retry again.
404 not found: report to the SPS editor through the special button you have in every program card.
403 forbidden: try to open the download link with your browser to understand if your system is refusing to access that particular resource or if the web site refuses to download the package without visiting it (yes... it happens).
Check available disk space and permission...: do what the message is asking you.
A good workaround for any of these problems is to download the package by hand (you have the link in the program card) and use the contextual option "Add from local package".

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



I did not yet finish to process the list of available uninstalled tools. Yesterday, the tool tips showed me the whole error message including error code. Today, I didn't see the error code anymore. The only thing I changed was to enable logging.

So far, I didn't process 404 nor 403 cases but 300 (Multiple Choices) instead. This was when processing Filmotech. SPS wanted ..."_38.exe" file. The repository didn't have it anymore. It seemed to be renamed to ..."_380.exe" and it provided another alternative at the same location named ..."_381.exe".

As already mentioned, I used the installation time yesterday to read the manual. There I read also of this manual procedure and thought it not relevant to me. In accordance to your guidance in your reply I tried successfully this manual procedure. Thank you for your guidance.

Then I wanted to report it to SPS editor. This revealed the next bug. Clicking on the corresponding option opens a new tab in the web broswer (as configured for URL handling). But the opening page is a web error page which doesn't provide the error code nor error context. But it provided enough information about the reason what went wrong. This resulting web error page reported "We are sorry, but this contact form has been deleted.

Create a free contact form for your website!"


When did you try the last time to contact SPS editor by means of SyMenu?


SyMenu reports me that VVV_Easy_SyMenu is SPS editor while the URL of the error page suggests that vvv-easy is the name of that editor. How may I contact him resp. her?


And here you see another bug resp. limitation of this forum feature as I don't have any influence on font size. It's a side effect of quoting off different sources and how the forum software handles it. I can only influence style like bold, italics or underlined as far as I can see.



Hi Gianluca,

as requested, I report this 404 error for currently unreachable SPS editor VVV_Easy_SyMenu alias vvv-easy for the SPS package tinyMediaManager. At the requested URL it reports this 404 error, page not found. Please make sure that the address is correct and hasn't moved. So how may I get this report forwarded to the SPS editor?
How may I get the package?
When does the SPS package get fixed?]]> Sat, 22 Jun 2019 01:03:16 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

It is really important now, that I resume the concept behind the SPS system because the way we describe it in this thread, is terrible... it seems a system designed by a kindergarten child.

The SPS system is a terrific way to re-order the chaos we have to deal with the Internet.
My initial idea was to create something similar to the Google Play Store but dedicated to the portable freeware software for Windows.
Unfortunately, I'm not Google and my resources are very limited so instead of a centralized hosting repository I decided to create a de-centralized one, counting on the hundreds of web sites that publish freeware software.
This architecture is by definition very fragile, I'd say a 10% failure is physiological, and really difficult to maintain. BTW thanks to all the SPS editors that help me in this crazy job.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



I probably don't understand what you mean by terrible and kindergarten child in that context. It doesn't seem important. I probably disagree. That's not important neither.


I don't figure out what you really mean by important now and resume concept behind SPS. But I guess it is a step too fast.


I didn't look up yet the SPS documentation and specification. But what my questions and your replies suggest to me is that it is important to identify certain situations not yet addressed by SPS as well as wrong inherent assumptions and other shortcomings in the current concept as first step, and then redesign the concept as second step. Such redesign may proceed in steps too. I already made a proposal on the download source field to change type and size with corresponding reasoning as well as some ideas for increasing reliability. I further raised new questions on SyMenu package behaviour before becoming able to make further proposals in that context.

How does your assessment conclude that Google Play Store would be a centralized hosting repository?

Such an assessment is in contrast to the fact that Google is a major player in the cloud business for its internal service and its service to its users. Some kind of seemingly central management doesn't mean that management is central nor hosting nor repository. Think of the tool Git which is also included in SyMenu suite. Its repositories may be central as well as decentral. Decentral is the standard use case.

I don't understand what you mean when describing "chaos we have to deal with the Internet" nor if this is relevant. Internet requires cooperating networks. In order to be able that many networks cooperate, they've to comply to strict rules. For me that sounds like the opposite of chaos.

I can see chaos more somewhere else. Take a look at tool suppliers. Some may be chaotic while others are very disciplined. What a large variety of software release processes. There exist recommendations of best practice and many who ignore them totally or partially. One such large organisation is called Microsoft. They don't ignore them totally. But in weighting different aspects they accept to partially ignore some best practices in favor of other aspects. They used other terms. If I remember right, they introduced not the term "chaos" but "DLL hell" for the situation created by them and others. The challenge of SyMenu and SPS is to handle this variety at tool suppliers side regardless how chaotic or ordered it may temporarily be or become.


As far as I understood, your claim of creating a decentralized repository isn't true neither. What you probably meant instead is the specification of SPS with the ability to cope with various (any ?) repository locations and not mandating a central one. This alone doesn't sound like a definition of fragile architecture. I encourage correct identification and not to create relations prematurely nor relying on assumptions not verified. You may make as many assumptions and claims as you like. But I encourage to verify them before relying on them. That's a good software development style for getting more reliable software. And I'm convinced this holds for other domains too. So my assumption is not that the architecture would be fragile by definition but instead that many assumptions are inherent and relied on without sufficient verification before relying. Perhaps I'm too naive as I could not yet verify this assumption (and don't rely yet on it neither).]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:56:29 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

I hope some of your doubts are solved now.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



I didn't express any doubts. I reported observations and assumptions instead. Various assumptions and concerns have been confirmed by your replies. I understood that this topic is for reporting troubles and bugs not doubts. What did I miss or misunderstand? (Sorry, I'm no native speaker and wasn't allowed to continue English lessons at school in the last two school years for two many lessons on my schedule and English being the second worst result in my school scores while my native language figured worst.)


So already replied in my first reply, my observations have been addressed. I raised questions how to handle various observed situation and I got these questions answered. So I could proceed although still not finished. And this proceeding revealed another bug pending reply on the new question how to handle.

I consider your reply helpful and progress achieved and further progress expected with much guidance for most situations already observed. So I'm confident not doubtful that remaining questions and concerns get addressed by fixes, guidance and work arounds.]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:09:05 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

"the downloaded package is in zip-format but unpacking resulted in error"
Please report it. Probably the package has changed from the last SPS update.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



Progress today showed that some of these errors have to do with AV intervention and blocking access due to malware reported. That's what I observed on the handful of tools blocked off the NirSoft suite. SyMenu didn't report download timeout but instead this above message. The VirusTotal field of SyMenu package management is empty. My AV software reported a trojan infection for most of these few tools.


I don't know yet if this is also the case for those tools of the SyMenu suite.]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 20:56:21 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

"Then there are still time outs for other tools where I don't yet have any hint for the reason."
Try not to go too deep in this. The Internet is a strange and dangerous place, the connection can be slowed down, thwarted, killed, twisted, hided, diverted, hijacked....
My advise: take a coffee and retry in another moment.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



I don't like coffee. I prefer tea. And yes, for undetermined causes, I'll repeat at different times of day.


That sounds much to conspiracy theory which raised strongly in popularity in the northern hemisphere of our planet, not only in Europe but also in North-America and Asia. I see the world and the Internet differently. I started to use Internet almost 35 years ago which was a nice place of many kind people and only few dangerous ones. The web has been invented more than half a decade later. The Internet has changes since. Security requirements have strongly increased also in the Internet. So its not so strange and dangerous as several people claim. The aim of increasing security levels is creating better identification of risks and dangers, provide simple and basic methods to handle them. And I don't understand Ministers of Internal Affairs of several powerful countries why they're responsible to increase such security levels and awareness (i.e. European KRIT regulation on critical infrastructure) while the same ministers want to prevent higher security levels in order to make work easier for law enforcement authorities and criminals.]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 20:46:33 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

"Some tools fail to download as the file or folder specified in SPS doesn't exist (anymore?)."
Yes, anymore. At the time of the program review, it existed, now probably the internal package structure has changed. Please report it to the editor.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



As already reported in a previous reply for the case of Filmotech, I tried reporting to the SPS editor but couldn't. May you forward my report until the reporting feature of SyMenu gets fixed?

What other means of reporting to SPS editor exist while SyMenu is not yet fixed?


The concerned SPS editor has been reported as vvv-easy resp. VVV_Easy_SyMenu.]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 20:35:04 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

"The AV causes timeout"
When an AV stops a download SyMenu can't do anything else than declaring the timeout but it can't know why the timeout has happened. The AV could be one of the causes but the lack of connectivity can be another.
What can you do for this? I really don't know. If your AV refuses a program, trust your AV, change it, or create an exception for that program.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



I haven't been clear enough. I didn't write nor claim that AV stopped downloads. I meant that I observed that SyMenu aborted initiated download while AV intervened after succesful download for inspection, holding back the download success until end of AV checking. In the view of SyMenu download was still in progress while in view of operating system and AV download was finished. That's no error. That behaviour may depend on AV edition. Better AV editions try checking so soon while basic editions try it later when another program opens it for execution or unpacking. SyMenu package management seems to assume that either no AV software is installed or only such a basic edition one, not a more powerful one. That's a bug in SyMenu package management if my assumption is true.

Which kind of software reports initiates the reported timeout?
How may I know?
How does SyMenu package management determine if download is ongoing or not?
How does SyMenu package management distinguish between downloading and some intervention by operating system (i.e. configured Windows policies or security policies marking every download) or AV software?

When I observed this ongoing check of AV software popup window, it didn't report the file name to be checked but its size instead. I could see that this AV popup window was progressing while SyMenu was reporting package downloads as failed. I couldn't see which one of the downloads claimed timedout by SyMenu package management related to the still ongoing AV check, not a finished AV check. And as AV check wasn't finished, I couldn't know neither the result of AV checking, if it was a pass or a refuse. Often, it was a pass. So how does SyMenu package management handle reported download success (after passed AV check) if it reported the same download as aborted due to timeout before?


Such more powerful AV editions are paid. I'm indeed considering a change of AV software on next renewal. This has nothing to do with the observation on SyMenu. I have my own requirements which take into account European Law (for privacy and security). This limits strongly the possible AV publishers. And I used NirSoft Launcher before with many of its tools considered dangerous by the installed AV software. With the hint of found danger, I was able to reconfigure AV as not only I don't consider ads as dangers per se although knowing that ads may include virus, trojans, worms and other malware. This reduced the list of NirSoft tools considered dangerous by AV significantly. With that configuration I installed SyMenu. And on installing SyMenu, I didn't see such AV popup windows yesterday on any repetition. The handful of such tools of NirSoft suite in SyMenu have shown today as reported injected and blocked while SyMenu remained keeping these tools as timed out.

So I can emphasize again that my question wasn't on SyMenu tools reported as timed out download and AV software not stopping download nor reporting access blocked to succesfully downloaded software but instead of succesfully downloaded tool with still ongoing AV check!]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 20:29:50 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

"Sourceforge timeout"
"Why do some tools download of a mirror while others try to download of the main repository"
"Are those mirrors hardcoded into SPS by the SPS maintainers or does SPS perform a selection"
"Repeated download created timeout"
Yes I confirm the timeout problem and I don't know why it happens. But I can ensure you that if you try another time the timeout disappears.
There is not an answer. Probably the SPS editor decided for a mirror when he reviews the program the first time.
Hardcoded.
Nice assumption, probably true. But who cares? Sourceforge is only one of our hosting repositories, it's currently responsible for 100 programs that are less than 10% of all the programs in the SyMenu Suite. The only case when you repeatedly ask it to download something is when you download the entire suite and you did it once in a life or less. I can't judge the Sourceforge policies but if you insist a bit trying again, you'll get what you want, so these policies are not so strict.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



It seems that I've not been clear enough. You claim that repeated download will succeed. My observation reported was the contrary. Repeated download repeated new timeout reported. That's what I meant when writing "Repeated download created timeout".


As I had to rewrite my replies repeatedly, I used that opportunity to look up also one of my claims. And I found that my original claims on their download policy is no longer published. So I don't know if they still implement the old policy without publishing anymore or if they changed also download policy probably due to changes in repository ownership. Sourceforge and several other larger open source repositories had a download policy in place and published that the prefer that direct downloads would be limited to project members and to mirrors while non-project people were referred to and recommended to use mirror sites supplying a preferred mirror site in dependency of user location resp. neighborhood and a list of mirror sites in case that this referral doesn't work or is less appropriate than expected. Several universities host such open source projects too and often publish similar download policies, often not referring to mirrors but to recommended download times instead providing preferrence to their staff and students while being more generous to the public at other times of the day resp. night.

So for such large open source repositories, SPS editors preferring a mirror instead of the original repository take into account such download policies. And as long as SPS does not support to provide a URL list instead of just a single URL for such a field, their choice is increasing reliability a significant bit. The best option would be that SPS allows such a mirror list and SPS editors use it, further more that SyMenu package management starts trying download with the first entry of the list unto the last if download doesn't succeed before and SyMenu doesn't implement another strategy to select an entry in accordance to that strategy used by some large open source repositories for determining preferred mirror for the asking user (a kind of decentralized weighting load balancing), and that the original repository being last in that list at least for these large open source repositories.

Repository maintainers care and handle it with their implementation of download limiting policy.

Sourceforge isn't the only repository with such a policy. It seems that it was most often concerned with this kind of temporariy download timeouts for SyMenu tools installation.

Repeating downloads off Sourceforge may result in temporarily blocked by IP address. So I didn't try repetition immediately. So I guess my timeouts were not due to blocking but to limitation. And with every repetition the download list with Sourceforge source shrinked, but kept other tools with Sourceforge source timing out again.]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 19:55:22 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

"May somebody explain how to handle the observed problems?"
Timeout: please retry again.
404 not found: report to the SPS editor through the special button you have in every program card.
403 forbidden: try to open the download link with your browser to understand if your system is refusing to access that particular resource or if the web site refuses to download the package without visiting it (yes... it happens).
Check available disk space and permission...: do what the message is asking you.
A good workaround for any of these problems is to download the package by hand (you have the link in the program card) and use the contextual option "Add from local package".

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



I did not yet finish to process the list of available uninstalled tools. Yesterday, the tool tips showed me the whole error message including error code. Today, I didn't see the error code anymore. The only thing I changed was to enable logging.

So far, I didn't process 404 nor 403 cases but 300 (Multiple Choices) instead. This was when processing Filmotech. SPS wanted ..."_38.exe" file. The repository didn't have it anymore. It seemed to be renamed to ..."_380.exe" and it provided another alternative at the same location named ..."_381.exe".

As already mentioned, I used the installation time yesterday to read the manual. There I read also of this manual procedure and thought it not relevant to me. In accordance to your guidance in your reply I tried successfully this manual procedure. Thank you for your guidance.

Then I wanted to report it to SPS editor. This revealed the next bug. Clicking on the corresponding option opens a new tab in the web broswer (as configured for URL handling). But the opening page is a web error page which doesn't provide the error code nor error context. But it provided enough information about the reason what went wrong. This resulting web error page reported "We are sorry, but this contact form has been deleted.

Create a free contact form for your website!"


When did you try the last time to contact SPS editor by means of SyMenu?


SyMenu reports me that VVV_Easy_SyMenu is SPS editor while the URL of the error page suggests that vvv-easy is the name of that editor. How may I contact him resp. her?


And here you see another bug resp. limitation of this forum feature as I don't have any influence on font size. It's a side effect of quoting off different sources and how the forum software handles it. I can only influence style like bold, italics or underlined as far as I can see.
]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 19:22:10 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef Gianluca wrote:

"There seem to be different reasons for different portable tools why they could not be installed"
Yes you're right.
SyMenu doesn't count on a single hosting place for all its programs but it prefers to use the original web sites where the programs are published.
It's quite normal that a decentralized system like this is unreliable. A web site could be down for maintenance, could be black listed by your AV software, could be slow to reply, could have been reorganize since the last visit I and the other editors did. And, yes, the problems usually arise after the last update we did.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



No. Your claim of preferred web site source doesn't match reality. I don't know how many refer to the original web site as claimed in your reply. I know for sure that not all use that original web site!

I don't consider this claim mismatch a problem. I recommend to proclaim less claims. Not complying with this claim can be meaningful and helpful. You'll see further down.

No. What's your claim on reliability?

Do you mean that it would be normal that a decentralized system is unreliable?
Or do you mean if a decentralized system is managed as described in the preceeding sentence of your claim ("like this") is unreliable?

I agree with the second variant while opposing the first. Decentralisation provides methods for increasing reliability. Think of high availability data center and hosts concepts, storage management and backup concepts. These concepts require decentralisation for achieving increased reliability. To develop such concepts, you've to follow some constraints at a meta-level. If you experience increased unreliability due to decentralisation and you prefer increased reliability, then you don't need to finish decentralization but need instead look for the faults in the concept you implement. Take RAID concepts as an example. If you have just two hard disks for a RAID available, you may choose between increased performance or increased reliability. With two hard disks, you can't achieve both aims simultanouly. If you want to achieve both, you need more hard disks in an RAID array. For developing high availability concepts, you need redundancy and eliminate any single point of failure as basic meta ideas. So in order to that SyMenu increases reliability instead of decreasing, you've to identify these single points of failure, eliminate them and provide enough redundancy.

So if an original web site source is overcrowded or implements a strongly limiting distribution resp. downloading policy, it's wise to use a less limiting and less overcrowded authoritive alternative. Such a kind of policy is possible also with the distributed naming system (DNS) of the Internet. That's another example to increase reliability by decentralization. So if SPS editors choose to use a different download source in contrast to your claim, there may be reasons and this may increase reliability although not providing such a guarantee.]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 19:03:21 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef
Gianluca wrote:

"I tried to install the complete suite"
You are not the first one to do that but I still don't understand why... Do you really need 1.300 programs...??? smile

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



That's what I understood as recommendation on the project web site.

This is independant of the question on need.

And I don't consider the project recommendation as nonsense nor bad. It makes sense. As I initially wrote, I'm a first time user wanting to learn and to explore. And I can't imagine learning of something not available. I consider it easier to start hands on with available tools.

The question on need comes later after an initial learning phase. And the combination of manual and forum provides enough guidance how to get rid of components no longer relevant.

If you want to provide a different starting point, tool introduction and learning experience, you should consider creating a starters sub-suite and adapt your recommendation accordingly. After reading most of the manual, this seems already possbile with the existing version of SyMenu.

I can now further provide feed back that the forum software feature preview isn't the kind of preview I'm used to of forum software. The preview looks quite different as it does not preprocess every markup used! It does not use markup of quotes! Is this a bug of the forum software or a known limitation of the trial version?]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 18:37:20 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef

Gianluca wrote:

Wow you won the prize for the most complex and long message. It's very difficult to reply to this kind of messages so please forgive me if I won't be clear enough or complete.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019



How may I find that rating and award in the forum?]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 18:23:55 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef
I've difficulties in replying in this forum. That's already my third trial as it doesn't seem to allow inline quoting as I usually do, at least not with my web browser configuration and the manner I usually create the answer. Is my web browser too new? (I've the latest release. I don't know if it showed up here yesterday or the day before. I know that on other parts of this planet, it became available about a day before. SyMenu has a tool included in its suite allowing such determination when used daily. I knew the tool already before and was astonished to find it included not expecting it there. This will lead to other threads later.)


So it seems that I've to split my answer in severals to address these short comings. And it doesn't seem to be dependant on my web browsers version nor configuration. I've the forum software under suspicion as it declares to be a trial version only, not knowing what their resulting limitations are.

So first, I thank you for your reply. It helps how to proceed. I did not yet finish to follow it. But I may already provide feed back that it decreases the list of pending installation and reveals further short comings and bugs, probably also misunderstandings, on your side as well as on mine. I reveals also where my initial description wasn't clear enough. So I'll come back with further quotes, details, clarifications and proposals.]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 18:20:13 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from Gianluca
"I tried to install the complete suite"
You are not the first one to do that but I still don't understand why... Do you really need 1.300 programs...??? smile

"There seem to be different reasons for different portable tools why they could not be installed"
Yes you're right.
SyMenu doesn't count on a single hosting place for all its programs but it prefers to use the original web sites where the programs are published.
It's quite normal that a decentralized system like this is unreliable. A web site could be down for maintenance, could be black listed by your AV software, could be slow to reply, could have been reorganize since the last visit I and the other editors did. And, yes, the problems usually arise after the last update we did.

"May somebody explain how to handle the observed problems?"
Timeout: please retry again.
404 not found: report to the SPS editor through the special button you have in every program card.
403 forbidden: try to open the download link with your browser to understand if your system is refusing to access that particular resource or if the web site refuses to download the package without visiting it (yes... it happens).
Check available disk space and permission...: do what the message is asking you.
A good workaround for any of these problems is to download the package by hand (you have the link in the program card) and use the contextual option "Add from local package".

"Sourceforge timeout"
"Why do some tools download of a mirror while others try to download of the main repository"
"Are those mirrors hardcoded into SPS by the SPS maintainers or does SPS perform a selection"
"Repeated download created timeout"
Yes I confirm the timeout problem and I don't know why it happens. But I can ensure you that if you try another time the timeout disappears.
There is not an answer. Probably the SPS editor decided for a mirror when he reviews the program the first time.
Hardcoded.
Nice assumption, probably true. But who cares? Sourceforge is only one of our hosting repositories, it's currently responsible for 100 programs that are less than 10% of all the programs in the SyMenu Suite. The only case when you repeatedly ask it to download something is when you download the entire suite and you did it once in a life or less. I can't judge the Sourceforge policies but if you insist a bit trying again, you'll get what you want, so these policies are not so strict.

"The AV causes timeout"
When an AV stops a download SyMenu can't do anything else than declaring the timeout but it can't know why the timeout has happened. The AV could be one of the causes but the lack of connectivity can be another.
What can you do for this? I really don't know. If your AV refuses a program, trust your AV, change it, or create an exception for that program.

"Some tools fail to download as the download gets refused by the repository specified in SPS!"
Please report the failing download to the SPS editor. We can change the repository or exclude the program from the suite.
On your side, you can download the package with your browser and proceed with the local package installation.

"Some tools fail to download as the file or folder specified in SPS doesn't exist (anymore?)."
Yes, anymore. At the time of the program review, it existed, now probably the internal package structure has changed. Please report it to the editor.

"Some tools fail to download as the URL specified in SPS could (no longer ?) be resolved by Internet DNS!"
Yes, no longer. Probably the hosting web site is dead. Please report it to the editor.

"Then there are still time outs for other tools where I don't yet have any hint for the reason."
Try not to go too deep in this. The Internet is a strange and dangerous place, the connection can be slowed down, thwarted, killed, twisted, hided, diverted, hijacked....
My advise: take a coffee and retry in another moment.

"the downloaded package is in zip-format but unpacking resulted in error"
Please report it. Probably the package has changed from the last SPS update.


OK, I finished.
I hope some of your doubts are solved now.

It is really important now, that I resume the concept behind the SPS system because the way we describe it in this thread, is terrible... it seems a system designed by a kindergarten child.

The SPS system is a terrific way to re-order the chaos we have to deal with the Internet.
My initial idea was to create something similar to the Google Play Store but dedicated to the portable freeware software for Windows.
Unfortunately, I'm not Google and my resources are very limited so instead of a centralized hosting repository I decided to create a de-centralized one, counting on the hundreds of web sites that publish freeware software.
This architecture is by definition very fragile, I'd say a 10% failure is physiological, and really difficult to maintain. BTW thanks to all the SPS editors that help me in this crazy job.

But guys, the result is amazing. We are managing 1.300 programs, giving the SyMenu users the opportunity to install, update, remove them with one click.

Maybe it's not the Google Play Store I initially dreamed but there is no other project that comes near to these numbers and this is enough for me to consider it a success.

edited by Gianluca on 21/06/2019]]> Fri, 21 Jun 2019 09:25:59 GMT https://ugmfree.it/forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=734 Message from chef
I tried to install the complete suite with its three groups (SyMenu, NirSoft, SysInternals). Only SysInternals could be installed completely. I guess about 95% of NirSoft could be installed and probably less then 90% of SyMenu. There seem to be different reasons for different portable tools why they could not be installed. Has this not been tested before release?
Or have such tests being performed only with already installed predecessor version?
Or have these problems risen only since the release?

May somebody explain how to handle the observed problems?


I did not yet take a look into what SPS is in detail and if this detail does sufficiently match reality. I.e. I've seen that various tools download of sourceforge or some mirror and that these downloads succeed for many while fail with time out for others, seemingly independant of size and bandwidth. This raises several questions to me. Why do some tools download of a mirror while others try to download of the main repository although I understood that main repository maintainer prefer to limit download of the main repository (to mirroring) and use download by users preferrable off mirrors?
Are those mirrors hardcoded into SPS by the SPS maintainers or does SPS perform a selection according to some kind of neighborhood with the complete list of available mirrors as available by the repository maintainers?

As I assumed that these download time outs were a consequence of a combination of too limited idea of source URLs in SPS and and download limitation policies by repository maintainers, I assumed that a repetition will get installed further tools while still getting time out failure for others at random. This correlated to my observation. Repeating installation of claimed available tools several times always showed this symptom, reducing the number of failed tools with source URL pointing to sourceforge or any mirror of one repetition to the next, making me believe of a dynamic download limitation by repository maintainers. Is my assumption of the problem cause correct?
What is expected handling of this situation by SyMenu and its users?

There are other reasons for time out failure too. There are larger tools which get downloaded but not installed as in this process, anti-virus protection takes its toll and time and seems not be expected by SyMenu. For some tools, download was completed and automatic anti-virus check started. After 30-70% of automatic anti-virus check, SyMenu aborted with time out. How are these time outs determined and how may they get configured, where?

Some tools fail to download as the download gets refused by the repository specified in SPS! Didn't this happen to other users?

What may I do to cope with?


Some tools fail to download as the file or folder specified in SPS doesn't exist (anymore?). Didn't this happen to other users?

What may I do to cope with?



Some tools fail to download as the URL specified in SPS could (no longer ?) be resolved by Internet DNS! Didn't this happen to other users?

What may I do to cope with?


Then there are still time outs for other tools where I don't yet have any hint for the reason. Didn't this happen to other users?

What may I do to cope with?


While these errors happened only for the SyMenu group, another kind of error happened for both groups with failures and is the only kind for the NirSoft group. It seems that those tools have a broken SPS or package format. If I remember the SyMenu error correctly, it claims that the downloaded package is in zip-format but unpacking resulted in error! Do these tools need different switched for unpacking then in the past?
What may I do to handle this situation?

I did not yet enable logging. So I don't know if logging provides further insight to check for the root causes. But I could not see any option or configuration available to me to handle these kind of errors and limitations. BTW, I started installing as recommended in standard mode, not in advanced expert mode. I'm running on a i7-8000 notebook with sufficient disk space and its standard RAM speed although RAM module is one category faster. I don't know why the leading OEM put in those as I understood that even turbo mode of CPU will not increase RAM access times, just its processing.]]> Thu, 20 Jun 2019 21:40:48 GMT